4500sEE, ARINC, GNS430 (non-waas), GTX327, AFS Pilot wiring/configuration

[rv7charlie]

Greetings,

I'm working on installing the following 'new to me' equipment:
4500sEE
ARINC
Crossbow
AFS Pilot autopilot
GNS430 (non-WAAS)
GTX327

After finishing (I thought) all the wiring, and starting system checks following the steps linked here:
http://www.advanced-flight-systems.c...ARINC-Problems
and here:
http://www.advanced-flight-systems.c...roubleshooting

I've run into some 'issues'.

1st, all references to the GNS 430 I've been able to find talk about the WAAS version; are there any wiring/configuration differences for the non-WAAS 430?

2nd, the 430 docs show tying P4001 pin 57 (GPS RS 232 in 1) to the GTX 327 P3271 pin 20 (RS232 out 1). But the AFS v7.4 install manual pg 127 shows EFIS Main pins 10/22 tied to the 430 P4001 pins 57/56. What's correct?

At this point I'm wondering what (else) I don't know. :-)

Is there anyone out there with the same set of equipment (at minimum, the 4500s, ARINC, 430, 327) that could share their wiring diagram, and if possible, 4500s configuration settings?

Thanks,

Charlie
direct email: mcsophie@gmail.com

[larco]

If I recall correctly? Pin 10 on the EFIS is the encoder out going to the 327, the 430 the AP and what ever else that needs the serial encoder info so it has to be spliced as needed to go where is needed. It is at first it seems very confusing but if you follow the AFS diagram it should work. Also the 430 and 430W in this regard are the same. If however you want it to be part of your ADSB equipment then you would need an update to WAAS, don't complicate your thoughts with that now? BTW, If you got the wiring harness with all this equipment, it might already be laid out for you?? Hope this helps. Larry

[rv7charlie]

Thanks, Larry. No joy on the factory harness; I've rolled my own. I think my confusion started many months ago, reading about using both the ancient 430's gps data (for IFR legality) and the potential to use a later model external gps puck as a secondary selectable gps source feeding the EFIS (for better update rates). I left myself a shielded set of pigtails from the EFIS Main pins 9,10,22 (serial #1) intending to add a gps puck, and apparently that serial port must be wired to the 430 P4001 pins 56,57. I assumed that the EFIS would get all the info it needed from the 430 via the ARINC, but apparently, that isn't the case. I'm working on that mod now.

I guess I need to give up on the idea of a second gps feeding the EFIS.

If I'm reading the manual correctly, pin 10 is serial #1 out to GPS (the 430??) and pin 22 is serial #1 receive from the GPS (again, 430??). My v7.4 of the manual shows pin 13 as serial #2 out to the transponder. If I can parallel multiple destinations from one serial port, that could give a lot of flexibility; thanks for the tip.

Any future ADSB will have its own WAAS source, so no risk of that complication. :-)

Still not sure why Garmin would want to feed transponder serial data out of pin 20 back to the 430, but that's what their drawing shows...

Thanks again,

Charlie

[larco]

I recommend using the AFS diagram to connect everything. It works. You can actually have a second GPS but I do believe it will need it's own serial port. Once this is working correctly and if you have an extra serial port call AFS for an antenna option. To add---- I had for a long time your set up with 2 4500s and wired it using AFS diagrams and it was great. Larry

[rv7charlie]

I'm working on that now. I only had a few variations. At this point, I suspect that it's mostly overlooked items, instead of deviations. I'll keep you updated via email.

Thanks,

Charlie

[mikev]

... the 430 and 430W in this regard are the same. If however you want it to be part of your ADSB equipment then you would need an update to WAAS...

I wanted to share one minor difference between a 430 and 430W if you ever decide to upgrade. We have a Sportsman that had a 430 that needed repair. Due to the Garmin flat rate pricing for repairs and the fact that an upgrade to a 430W included any repairs to the 430, we elected to go with the 430W upgrade path. The avionics dealer was nice enough to install a 430W loaner during the time that 430 was out to Garmin.

On a night fight, we turned on the panel/avionics lighting and immediately had the smell of burning electronics and some smoke. After turning off the lighting and appropriate POH procedures, the flight completed without further incident. After inspection, the source of the smell / smoke was the 430W. The avionics shop was none too happy and blamed the original panel provider with mis-wiring and wanted us to pay for the damage to the 430W. We contacted the original panel manufacturer who was quite helpful and told us that there is a known incompatibility between the 430 and 430W lighting connections. There is a Garmin publication that describes this, but he couldn't share the document since it was for dealers only.

If you do decide at some point to get a 430W, I'd suggest you get that document from Garmin as part of the upgrade. I've looked at the installation manuals and don't see any obvious difference, but perhaps that the problem that the bulletin clarifies.

Mike

[Shawn McGinnis]

Charlie,

Probably the most useful bit of information would be that most devices allow you to configure which devices are connected to which serial ports. The AF-4500 has 4 configurable serial ports (#1 10/22, #2 13/25, #3 4/5, and #4 on the Expansion 1/6). The same with the 430 with their RS232 In/Out (1,2,3..)

You will then configure which devices are connected to which port number in each devices setup. The easiest way to get this correct is to keep a drawing of which ports of the device connects to which port of the other device.

This is the most common setup but you may need to change your port numbers to match your install:

AHRS Port 0: Crossbow
Serial Port 1: AVTN/ARNAV to GNS430 (non-WAAS)
Serial Port 2: NMEA/ICARUS to GTX327
Serial Port 3: AF-PILOT to AFS Pilot autopilot
Serial Port 4: ARINC to AF-ARINC


GPS/NAV 1 Data Source -> Serial Port 4
GPS/NAV 2 Data Source -> None
GPS/NAV 3 Data Source -> None

[rv7charlie]

Hi Shawn,

Thanks for jumping in.

I'd love to find a tutorial on the relationship (similarities, differences, co-dependencies) between serial ports and ARINC. That might help me a bit with what seem like inconsistencies in interfacing. For instance, the ARINC hookup diagram (just downloaded the single page doc from the web site) shows the Pilot ARINC switched between the 430 ARINC out and the ARINC box OBS/AP out, which is how I wired it. It also shows the Pilot's serial input tied to the 430's RS232 #1 out (P4001 pin 56), which, again, is how I just finished wiring it. I just finished adding (previously overlooked) the pair of wires shown in the dashed box on the ARINC drawing, that tie the 430 RS232 #1 to the 4500 serial #1.

Thus:
4500 serial #1 bidirectional to 430 P4001 pins 56/57 (RS232 #1)
430's serial #1 out (pin 56, above) tapped to feed the Pilot primary serial in (pin 17)
I also made all other connections as shown on the ARINC drawing.
edit: All applicable pins on the 4500 Main connector are wired as shown on its hookup diagram, as well, including the recommended port to the 327 transponder.

I'm confused by what you show on port 3: 'AF-Pilot to AFS Pilot autopilot'. (?)
Should the Pilot primary serial input be wired to the 430 RS232 #1 output, or to some point on the ARINC module, or to an output port on the 4500 itself?

As I mentioned in the thread starting post, I had thought that ARINC carried all the data the A/P needed to function, and the serial GPS data amounted to 'backup info', in case ARINC was lost. This is apparently not the case, which begs the question: Does 'primary serial data' need to come from the same place as ARINC data? Should it be switched with ARINC, or does it not matter, or... :-)

Thanks again for the help. I've got a couple of careers under my belt doing electronic installation and troubleshooting (consumer, computer, and industrial), and a couple of decades of maintaining my own homebuilts, but ARINC-related avionics is my newest learning opportunity.

Charlie

[Shawn McGinnis]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-232
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARINC_429

If you connect the 4500 serial port to the AF-PILOT (instead of connecting to the 430 Serial #1) you can engage and disengage the autopilot from the EFIS. This removes the need to press the EFIS button on the AP. It also allows the EFIS to send whatever valid GPS signal it has. So if you had a backup GPS-250 and your 430 was off you would have the 250 feeding the AP.

The 'primary serial data' source isn't important, just that it exists.

[rv7charlie]

That sounds great, but I currently have only one screen. If I move the Pilot serial source to EFIS port 3 (out), does that leave me any option for both the 430 and a second GPS to feed the EFIS? I assume that the EFIS still needs its serial #1 connected to the 430, for bidirectional communication and access to the 430's 'legal' GPS features.
If serial 3 can be configured so that its 'out' feeds the Pilot serial in, and it's 'in' accepts an external, 2nd GPS source, then I'm golden. Or does the 430's serial #1 *not have to be connected to the EFIS for all the interconnect features to work and be IFR-legal?

Thank you for your patient assistance,

Charlie
(Can you tell I'm an EFIS & IFR doofus?)